What makes the 'Legend of Zelda' games good?

[Raen]

I have a question for you all (and a reason for asking it, that you may or may not ever find out about! I'm hoping you will, eventually). What makes the Legend of Zelda series good? Obviously, it's one of the most loved game series ever made, and I'm curious to know what you guys specifically like about it. So tell me!

(I'm expecting at least one person to say the music is a big part of it, considering my audience here, and I'd agree )

[Dan]

The story has to be good.  Even the first two games had stories, and while most of the story was in the manual, the story was still excellent and made the game that much more fun to play.  The music has always been good from the very beginning, with a good "adventure" theme for the overworld and good title music and dungeon music.  The gameplay is obviously very important since they are games first and foremost; the games need to have a certain amount of freedom to explore and places to find, with plenty of little hidden areas.  The dungeons need to have some sort of puzzles, even if the "puzzle" is just defeating all the enemies in the room or lighting a torch.  And collectibles, like new weapons or new items.  A variety of enemies that don't get boring to fight.

I don't know how to answer the question any other way than that, but hopefully my answer wasn't terrible.

[Larke12]

It depends on who you are. That's my thought process.

[Raen]

That can be said for almost anything, though, Larke. My question is, what do you think makes Zelda games good?

[Larke12]

I say bullet list!!
 

• Music (Why not! Amazing, beautiful)
• Controls (Keeps me playing)
• Story-Line (Love the replay value out of this)
• Characters (XD No comment necessary)
• Weapons (Oh God, the weapons!)
• Hyrule (Beautiful place)
• Hyrule Castle (Memories)
• Adventuring (So much to find, so much to do!!)
• Funny Dialogue (I thought so)
• After-story (I can do so much once it is all over, it is like desert!)

 

Plenty more mind you.

[Stephen J. Weber]

I think you mean dessert.

[Unexpected_Duck_Noises]

What I feel makes a Zelda game strong is that all the elements of the game play off of each other and augment all the other elements, creating some sort of mutual chain reaction. Sort of like what Dan said, except with all the elements of the game working together, rather than separately, to make the game better as a whole.

[Larke12]

I think you mean dessert.

 
 
XD Yes, I did.

[Stephen J. Weber]

I think you mean dessert.

 
XD Yes, I did.

Easy way to remember: two "s"s because you always want seconds.

[tcrpgfan]

what i think is good about zelda, especiallly the more recent releases, is how detailed the world of zelda became. As sparse as the timeline is, there is a selnse of continuity between the games in a spiritual sense where events from one game interconnected with each other in both overt and subtle ways. Like how ocarina of time is a direct sequel to wind waker in the most literal way, and how there is a ton of subtle connections between ALttP and TP.

[ebuch♫]

Wind Waker is the sequel to Ocarina of Time...

[Larke12]

Time Line. Starts with Minish Cap, go downward.   

MC

 

FS/FSA

     

OoS+OoA

     

LoZ

 

AoL

     

ALTTP

 

LA

 

(BS Zelda: Kodai No Sekiban -- Japan only release cont' story.)

     

OoT(Child)

 

OoT        MM

     

     WW          TP+LCT

 

              PH          (Next Zelda?)

 

ST               

[Unexpected_Duck_Noises]

I don't think MC or FS/FSA are even in the first time line. This is my interpretation:

Creation of Hyrule
then
Link I, Ocarina of Time. As adult Link, Link stops Ganon in the future.
Zelda returns Link to his own time, before everything happened. Link searches for Navi, and ends up in
Termina (Majora's Mask).

Spoiler for Hiden:

After Majora's Mask, Link returns to Hyrule as a child, and ends up in the second time line.

By playing WW, the opening credits explain what happened in the first time line after Link stops Ganondorf, his absence being explained by returning to his own time period.
Link II: WW
then Phantom Hourglass
We can infer from the ending of Phantom Hourglass and the beginning of Spirit Tracks that the Great Sea has receded, because he restored the Ocean King to full power.
Link III Spirit Tracks
The events of Spirit Tracks seem to fit in with the introduction to ALttP, and the geography fits such that the Great Sea has receded.
Link IV:
ALttP
Then, Link goes sailing and explores Labrynna and Holodrum (Oracle of Ages and Seasons respectively), the order depending on which one you played first. Another piece of evidence that reinforces this theory is that Ahgahnim appears as a mini-boss in Oracle of Seasons.
Link sets out to sea again and wakes up in Kolohint in Link's Awakening. Evidence supporting that Link's Awakening is placed here in the time line is that, during the final boss encounter, you fight the Ghost of Ahgahnim (from ALttP) as well as Phantom Ganon (as he appeared in ALttP,

Spoiler for Hiden:

and again, resurrected, in Oracle of Ages/Seasons. The fact that Ganon needs to be resurrected implies that he was defeated in a previous game by this same incarnation of Link. Since the geography is the most similar to ALttP, the Oracle games must be preceded by ALttP

)
Link V: LoZ
followed by The Adventure of Link, where Link tries to prevent Ganon's return.
That is the end of the first timeline, seeing as Ganon is not resurrected.

The ending of Majora's Mask tells us that Link returned to Hyrule as a child, explaining his sudden disappearance from the first time line, as eluded to in WW. Now that Link knows Ganondorf's plan (having lived through it as an adult), Hyrule sets out to stop Ganondorf and seal him away,

Spoiler for Hiden:

as shown by the flashback at the top of Arbiter's Grounds in Twilight Princess, where the Sages attempt to seal him back into the Dark Realm. Ganondorf survives and escapes to the twilight realm through the mirror, and influences Zant to overthrow Midna in the Twilight Realm.

Link II (second/alternate time line): In the alternate time line, the events of Twilight Princess happen, fitting in with the explanation above (that contains spoilers).

[Larke12]

But!
MC is said (in game) to be the oldest legend of all, and it says so on the box (and Miyamoto says the game is where it all begins), and FSA follows that game because of the setting.
 
TP follows MM, because the story in TP says so. Remember when Ganaondorf was sentenced away? Remember the end of OoT? Link and Zelda talk, let Ganondorf live, and sentenced him away later after Link had disappeared.
 
WW follows OoT because Miyamoto says it does, and the storyline makes it unbelievably clear.
 
Simple WW-PH-ST. Everyone got that. XD
 
OoA, OoS can go anywhere. There isn't much stating where they should go, Miyamoto says it doesn't matter.
 
LoZ, AoL, Alttp, LA come before or after OoT. Depending on what you think, these may come after TP or before OoT.


Here is what I like to follow: http://afx.cc/ztimeline

[Dan]

Aonuma was the one who said MC was first, wasn't he?  I can't remember.  Anyway, the order of MC>FS>FSA is correct, but FSA may or may not take place after another game in the series; I don't remember if there was word on when FSA comes, but Aonuma once said that FS was oldest, and then when MC came out it was the oldest and a prequel to FS.  From OoT onward the placements are correct; however, LoZ/AoL & ALttP/LA are indefinite.  Word of God has placed them like OoT>LoZ>AoL>ALttP>LA and OoT>ALttP>LA>LoZ>AoL, among other variations.  They haven't been discussed much in interviews with the creative team since OoT came out.  The Oracle series is also indefinite.

There are even a lot of people who think that the Four Sword trilogy and the Oracle duology (don't you wish there was a Greek equivalent for 2 in a series, so I wouldn't have to use "duology"?) aren't canon at all.

This much is certain... (Commas indicate when a definite sequence stops)
LoZ>AoL, ALttP>LA, OoT>MM>TP, OoT>TWW>PH>ST

ALttP is even more difficult to place when you consider that interviews around OoT's release pretty much said OoT was the backstory with the Imprisoning War and everything, and then we get TWW on one side of a split timeline and MM and TP on the other side.

Now, here's one of my theories (which everyone should feel free to disregard, since I'm not saying it's right and I'd prefer to be proven wrong by the developers): the 3D titles are more canon than the 2D titles.  Think about it for a minute; since OoT came out, the creative teams have been very detailed in the timeline for the other 3D games and they rarely mention the 2D titles when the new 3D title comes out.  Like "how does this affect ALttP?" when TWW or TP came out; I can't find any quotes on it, can you?  That's just one theory, though, I've got others that I both like better and have more evidence for.

Hey, what say we get back on topic?

Sort of like what Dan said, except with all the elements of the game working together, rather than separately, to make the game better as a whole.

They worked together in mine... just because I didn't say "Work together!" doesn't mean they don't, because by the very nature of video games they have to work together or they don't really work.  Unless you have a crappy game with only a few things going for it, they always have to work together.

[Unexpected_Duck_Noises]

I remain adamant that MC and FS aren't in the main time line, because they don't really seem to fit anywhere else, because OoT is defined to be the "beginning." And I think the only logical place to put ALttP is after Spirit Tracks.

[Dan]

But the world of ALttP is less advanced technologically than ST, isn't it?  What would cause that kind of regression?  How did Ganon escape being turned into stone?  How did the Master Sword get from being at the bottom of the sea and embedded in Ganondorf's head, to being in the Lost Woods and in its pedestal?

[kevinsano]

^Yea, I've stopped trying to fit the 2D games into the 3D timeline... it's too frustrating XD
the Capcom games are even worse to place D:

The 3D games seem to be made with a more or less internally consistent timeline, but with little or no regard to the rest, while Capcom seemed to have hooked into aLttP and LA for their own games...

[Unexpected_Duck_Noises]

FANBOY FIGHT! 

First off, there are all sorts of anachronisms in the Zelda universe, and technology never seems to be consistent; but I do have other reasons for why it occurs after ST which I will elaborate later. Secondly, as I inferred from the end of Phantom Hourglass, the Great Ocean receded, possibly to an extent to allow the bottom of the ocean to be ground level. Note that Hyrule Castle and the Temple of Time (from Ocarina of Time) were also at the bottom of the ocean in Wind Waker, so ground level is at the bottom of the sea because sea level rose dramatically. And just because Ganondorf's head was impaled by a sword doesn't mean he's dead; he actually exploded in the original LoZ 

Reasons why Ocarina of Time must be at the very beginning of the time line:
There are no previous allusions to any earlier incarnations of Link, Zelda, or Ganondorf. If FS did occur before Ocarina of Time, Ganondorf would have been suspect at the beginning of Ocarina of Time.

The only reference to any earlier time period in OoT is to the creation of Hyrule itself; the only other game that does not have any references to any earlier time period is the original LoZ, but that couldn't handle enough text to describe it. No previous crises are referred to, meaning that this is the first of all the various crises throughout the Zelda time line. MC actually refers to a prior crisis where a hero came and saved everyone, and the in the introduction, the hero is a) clearly Link and b) is holding the Master Sword. This means that MC Link could not have been the first Link, meaning that a) this is not part of the main time line, or b) we don't know where it's situated in the time line other than not at the beginning.

Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap (GBA) Intro

The first time any of the main characters possess any Triforce fragments is in OoT when Link opens the Temple of Time. Assuming the Triforce of Power is a prerequisite for turning into pig Ganon, LoZ, ALttP, and AoL could not precede Ocarina of Time.

Reasons why ALttP follows ST:
During the prologue to ST, there is an allusion to a war between the Forces of Light and the Forces of Darkness. During the introduction to ALttP, the introduction states that, a long time ago, there was a war between the Forces of Light and Darkness, and a Hero appeared to stop the re-emergence of the Forces of Darkness (Malladus in ST).

The first portal to the Dark World is in ST, and there are no prior references to these portals having existed before. ALttP mentions that the Dark World had existed before, because there is a whole back story to it that you discover throughout the game.

The Lost Woods are present in ST, and are also present in ALttP.

Also, Larke, when did Miyamoto say that MC was the very first in the time line? Also, I did mention the ending of OoT, and I said exactly what you said regarding Majora's Mask and TP.

[Dan]

[T]he Great Ocean receded, possibly to an extent to allow the bottom of the ocean to be ground level. Note that Hyrule Castle and the Temple of Time (from Ocarina of Time) were also at the bottom of the ocean in Wind Waker, so ground level is at the bottom of the sea because sea level rose dramatically. And just because Ganondorf's head was impaled by a sword doesn't mean he's dead; he actually exploded in the original LoZ 

Yes, but he was dead in the original as well.  His minions were trying to revive him by sacrificing Link and sprinkling the hero's blood on Ganon's ashes.

There are no previous allusions to any earlier incarnations of Link, Zelda, or Ganondorf.

There are no allusions to previous heroes in LoZ and AoL, either, nor does ALttP refer to previous heroes (I mean, heroes like Link, not generic soldiers and sages/wisemen).

If FS did occur before Ocarina of Time, Ganondorf would have been suspect at the beginning of Ocarina of Time.

Let's reverse that, shall we?  If OoT did occur before FSA, Ganondorf would have been suspect at the beginning of FSA.  But he wasn't.  Therefore FSA comes before OoT..?  No, that logic doesn't work for FSA>OoT or OoT>FSA.  TMC and FS don't reference Ganon or the Triforce to the best of my knowledge, and since Aonuma said they came first, they probably came first.  FSA's placement at the beginning, however, is a more tenuous claim.

The only reference to any earlier time period in OoT is to the creation of Hyrule itself; the only other game that does not have any references to any earlier time period is the original LoZ, but that couldn't handle enough text to describe it.

Earlier time periods aren't relevant to OoT, though, just as they weren't relevant to the original game because all the important action was taking place in the present.

No previous crises are referred to, meaning that this is the first of all the various crises throughout the Zelda time line.

Not necessarily.

MC actually refers to a prior crisis where a hero came and saved everyone, and the in the introduction, the hero is a) clearly Link and b) is holding the Master Sword. This means that MC Link could not have been the first Link, meaning that a) this is not part of the main time line, or b) we don't know where it's situated in the time line other than not at the beginning.

Who said anything about the first Link?  It doesn't need to be the beginning of time to come before something else.  There could have been a million Links before OoT for all we know, and it wouldn't really matter or affect its position unless they got their own game to star in.

The first time any of the main characters possess any Triforce fragments is in OoT when Link opens the Temple of Time. Assuming the Triforce of Power is a prerequisite for turning into pig Ganon, LoZ, ALttP, and AoL could not precede Ocarina of Time.

Agreed.  But what does that have to do with TMC, FS, and FSA, where the Triforce isn't even mentioned?

Reasons why ALttP follows ST:
During the prologue to ST, there is an allusion to a war between the Forces of Light and the Forces of Darkness.

That allusion is in almost every game.  LoZ, ALttP, OoT, TWW, TMC, all of them refer to wars between the forces of good and evil, light and dark, etc.

During the introduction to ALttP, the introduction states that, a long time ago, there was a war between the Forces of Light and Darkness, and a Hero appeared to stop the re-emergence of the Forces of Darkness (Malladus in ST).

The forces of darkness in ALttP were Ganondorf and his band of thieves.  It's in the manual, and at least alluded to in-game if not outright stated.

The first portal to the Dark World is in ST, and there are no prior references to these portals having existed before.

Just like there are no prior references to Ganon having been a bad guy before in LoZ, or how there are no prior references to the Triforce of Courage in LoZ, or how there are no prior references to Agahnim in LoZ or AoL, or how there are no prior references to Ganon in FSA (well, it depends on how you take one of the quotes from Princess Zelda at the verrry end of the game)...

ALttP mentions that the Dark World had existed before, because there is a whole back story to it that you discover throughout the game.

Yes, it had existed before... as the Sacred Realm / Golden Land / whatever you want to call it.

The Lost Woods are present in ST, and are also present in ALttP.

And are also present in LoZ, OoT, TP, and others.  If we take the Oracle series to be canon, then geographical anomalies like the Lost Woods are not uncommon, as both Ages and Seasons featured woods or forests that would change in pattern to confuse you.

Also, Larke, when did Miyamoto say that MC was the very first in the time line?

Miyamoto didn't say that, Aonuma did. http://www.zeldawiki.org/Timeline_Quotes#cite_ref-1

I look forward to your response, as your theory does interest me.